As far as I understand, the = original problem of this discussion (unbalanced selection of invited speake= rs at a workshop) got its solution as good as this community can provide - = by sending the notification about the concerns to the organizers=2E I since= rely doubt that further heated discussion would be helpful considering the = staunch positions of both sides=2E Let me remember Max Planck:

"An i= mportant scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning ov= er and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul= =2E"

I believe this is applicable to the present discussion, too=2E = Seldom arguments are solved by persuading, especially on the Internet=2E Le= t us better remember that Christmas is approaching and just wish/pray for e= veryone around us and us ourselves to be kinder towards each other=2E
With best regards to everyone,
Igors Mihailovs

19 =D0=B4=D0=B5=D0=BA=D0=B0=D0=B1=D1=80=D1=8F 2019 =D0=B3=2E 20:= 45:09 GMT+02:00, "Matthias Heger heger=3D-=3Dualberta=2Eca" <owner-chemi= stry : ccl=2Enet> =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=88=D0=B5=D1=82:
```Sent to CCL by: Matthias Heger [heger(a)ualberta=
=2Eca]Sebastian,First of all, thank you for that very detailed =
breakdown of what the meritocracy argument really is: A tool to justify the=
blatant victim shaming that we're seeing in this discussion=2EYou'=
re asking if you are forgetting anything in your list=2E I would actually e=
xpand on your fourth item - not fostering students from certain backgrounds=
enough - from the perspective of the current issue=2E How girls and women =
are judged in mathematics and science is not just about background, it abso=
lutely is about gender too=2E This can be very clearly demonstrated=2E For =
example, randomized male or female names on otherwise identical resumes lea=
d to drastic differences in how the applicants are rated in terms of compet=
ence and hireability for scientific positions=2E [1] One study found that a=
lready in primary school, girls can perform equally as well or even better =
than boys in math exams, but only if thally as well or even better than boy=
s in math exams, but only if the tests are anonymized - otherwise, there is=
a distinct bias against them=2E This has obvious and lasting effects on th=
eir academic career choices right from the very start=2E [2]Gender =
bias among teachers and professors is an open secret=2E Putting the "merito=
cracy" nonsense on top of it is nothing less than adding insult to injury=
=2E It actually reminds me of the whole "pulling yourself up by your bootst=
raps" thing=2EBest,Matthias[1] https://www=2Epnas=2Eorg/content/109/=
41/16474[2] Am 19-Dec=2E-2019 um 12=
:51 a=2Em=2E schrieb Sebastian seb=2Ekozuch*o*gmail=2Ecom:Sent to CCL by: Sebastian [seb=2Ekozuch=
_-_gmail=2Ecom]Dear CCLers:Since the topic of the women "qu=
ota" in comp chem has been already discussedhere before (see the grand =
ICQC affair), I won't talk about it=2E Enough is to saythat I believe t=
hat Jim Kress is wrong=2EHowever, I would like to talk about th=
e concept of Meritocracy=2ETL;DR version: Whoever believes in m=
eritocracy is wrong=2E Horribly wrong=2E Savagecapitalism style of wron=
g=2E "Make America great again" kind of wrong=2ELong version:For those that are not familiar with it, there is a concept known in =
economy,sociology and obviously in sociology of science called the Matt=
hew effect:"For to every one who has will more be given, and he wil=
l have abundance; butfrom him who has not, even what he has will be tak=
en away=2E" (Matthew 25:29)In simple words: "the rich get richer an=
d the poor get poorer"(https://en=2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/Matthew_effect)=
We know this from the great inequality that has plagued the world in the 21=
stcentury, but there are many studies that point to something that we a=
ll knowhere: Whoever received scientific prizes in the past will have a=
huge advantageto receive more grants, good students and honors in the =
future=2E There aremathematical models(https://www=2Eworl=
ing to the obvious:Success =3D Talent + LuckGreat Succe=
ss =3D A little more of Talent + A lot of Luck(Daniel Kahneman, "Th=
inking, Fast and Slow")Nobody says that the big names in comp c=
hem are not bright=2E But there are tonsof other bright and extremely h=
ard working people that never made it to the bigleagues due to a lack o=
f luck=2E Maybe their PhD project was doomed to fail, butnobody could k=
now that until someone tries it (a kind of sacrifice to the godsof scie=
nce)=2E Maybe their postdoc adviser was an a-hole=2E Maybe they were born i=
nthe wrong side of the world=2E And yes, maybe you come from a culture =
where womenare not accepted as scientists since they will "neglect the =
family values"=2E Ifby a stroke of luck you had a good head-start, your=
chances of success in thefuture grow exponentially=2EIn other =
words: Meritocracy is a myth=2E A dangerous, unfair myth=2E Both in the=
economic and in the academic world=2EWe are loosing many talent=
s due to the lack of diversity and the belief thatpeople reached their =
status only due to their capacity=2E We are making thingsworse each tim=
e:1) We do not check that we give enough slots to women=2E2=
) We review in a more harshly way a paper if we don't know the authors<=
br>3) We review in a more harshly way a paper if we don't know how to prono=
unce thenames of the authors (this is a real thing!)4) We do no=
t put more effort in teaching and forming students coming from lesshapp=
y backgrounds or less "academic" cultures5) We give great honors to=
selected people just because they got honors in the past6) We blin=
dly take the H-index as THE measure7) We applaud the people that pu=
blished more papers than can humanly write (oreven read!)(what =
am I forgetting in this list?)Of course that publishing more an=
d getting prizes is great=2E Each time that myH-index climbs one number=
I get drunk=2E But we must acknowledge the luck effect,and especially =
the Matthew effect, in our and others successes=2EThe fair thing is=
to see beyond that and give more opportunities to the lesslucky ones, =
with the hope they will have the same chances of showing theircapacity=
=2E Sadly we must include women in this bag, even in the 21st century=2EIt's not always easy, but we can start by trying to put more women and/or =
peoplewhose names we cannot pronounce in the conferences' list of invit=
ed speakers=2EMeritocracy should be one-way: the one who merits=
, should receive=2E If youbelieve that the ones that received did so ex=
clusively because they merit, ohboy=2E Not only you are unfair, you are=
unscientific=2EThanks for listening to my rant,Sebasti=
anOn 19/12/2019 0:18, Jim Kress jimkress35_+_gmail=2Ecom wr=
ote: Sent to CCL by: "=
Jim Kress" [jimkress35[a]gmail=2Ecom] So, they need to ensure they have=
proper representation of all 26 genders in their program=2EFrom the responses I have seen, i=
ncluding the personal attacks by Mr=2E Seifert, it is obvious the concept o=
f meritocracy is dead=2E That is unfortunate=2E  It reduce=
s these Workshops to useless displays of virtue signaling and mediocre scie=
nce=2E I will not comment further=2E  I'll have to invoke Mark Twai=
n when he said " "Never argue with a pig=2E It just frustrates you and irri=
tates the pig=2E" Jim Kress -----Original Message-----<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">From: owner-chemistry+jimkr=
ess35=3D=3Dgmail=2Ecom{:}ccl=2Enet <owner-chemistry+jimkress35=3D=3Dgmai=
l=2Ecom{:}ccl=2Enet> On Behalf Of Shahar Keinan skeinan : gmail=2Ecom Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 12:43 PM To: Kress, J=
im  <jimkress35{:}gmail=2Ecom> Subject: CCL: 8th French-Japanese =
Workshop on Computational Methods in Chemistry Sent to CCL by: =
Shahar Keinan [skeinan###gmail=2Ecom] I agree with Kathrin here, it is the =
role of the organizers to make sure that they have a balanced conference=2E=
And it is the role of the community to call them out when they fai=
l to do so=2E Shahar On 12/18/19 9:30 AM, zborowsk zbor=
owsk,chemia=2Euj=2Eedu=2Epl wrote:Sent to CCL by: zborowsk [zborowsk]|[chemia=2Euj=2Eedu=2Epl] W =
dniu2019-12-18 11:07, Kathrin Helen Hopmann kathrin=2Ehopmann=2E:=2Euit=
=2Enonapisa=C5=82(a): Sent to CCL by: Kathrin Helen Hopmann [kathrin=2Ehopmann=2E=2Euit=2Eno]=
Dear Organizers of the 8th French-Japanese Workshop on Computational Methods in Chemistry, I am sorry that I may have miscounted, it =
seems there is 1 female speaker among the 19 confirmed invited speakers=
(perhaps I have misinterpreted some of the other name and there are mo=
re?)=2E I know it is not easy for conference organizers to ensure a=
sometimes, so that we can find out how we can improve things=2E wit=
h best regards, Kathrin Hopmann Do not only talk about=
, simply take a part in the conference, then the balance will be signif=
icantly improved=2E -----Original Message-----From: Kathrin Helen Hopmann Sent: onsdag 18=2E d=
esember 2019 11:27 To: 'CCL Subscribers' <chemistry^ccl=2Enet> Subject: RE: CCL: 8th French-Japanese Workshop on Computational Metho=
ds in Chemistry Dear Organizers of the 8th French-Japanese Workshop=
on Computational Methods in Chemistry, I counted 19 confirmed =
invited speakers on your website=2E Sadly, not a single of these seems =
to be a woman=2E with best regards Kathrin Hopmann =
-----Original Message-----From: owner-chemistry+kathrin=2Ehopmann=3D=3Duit=2Eno^ccl=2Enet<=
owner-chemistry+kathrin=2Ehopmann=3D=3Duit=2Eno^ccl=2Enet> On Behalf Of<=
br>Francois Berenger mlists(a)ligand=2Eeu Sent: onsdag 18=
=2E desember 2019 06:47 To: Kathrin Helen Hopmann <kathrin=2Ehopmann=
^uit=2Eno> Subject: CCL: 8th French-Japanese Workshop on Computation=
al Methods in Chemistry Sent to CCL by: "Francois  Berenger=
" [mlists- -ligand=2Eeu] Registration for the 8th French-Japanese Works=
hop on Computational Methods in Chemistry (FJCMC2020) is open! =
Please consider joining us March 19th and 20th 2020 at Kumamoto univers=
ity (Japan)=2E We will be lucky to have presentations by many prest=
igious speakers: http://www=2Echem=2Ekumamoto-u=2Eac=2Ejp/~=
at: http://www=2Echem=2Ekumamoto-u=2Eac=2Ejp/~frjp2020/index=2Ehtml The registration page is: http://www=2Echem=2Ekumamot=
o-u=2Eac=2Ejp/~frjp2020/registration=2Ehtml We are looking forw=
ard to meet you in Kumamoto, The organizers=2Ehttp://www=2Eccl=2Ene=
t/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_messagehttp://www=2E ccl=2Enet/chemistry/sub_uns=
ub=2Eshtmlhttp://www=2Eccl=2Enet/spammers=2Etxt>>> Conferences: http://server=2Eccl=2Enet/chemistry/announcements/conferences/-- Krzysztof K=2E Zborowski Faculty of Chemistry Jagiel=
lonian University in Krakow 2 Gronostajowa Street 30-387 Krakow=
Poland email: zborowsk-#-chemia=2Euj=2Eedu=2EplConferences: http:/=
/server=2Eccl=2Enet/chemistry/announcements/conferences/>     > -- Shahar Keinan (919)-357-5319http://www=2Eccl=
=2Enet/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_messagehttp://www=2Eccl=2Enet/chemistry/sub_uns=
ub=2Eshtmlhttp://www=2Eccl=2Enet/spammers=2EtxtE-mail to subscribers:CHEMIS=
TRY() ccl=2Enet  or use:>> E-mail to administrators:CHEMISTRY-REQ=
UEST() ccl=2Enet  or usehttp://www=2Eccl=2Enet/chemistry/sub_unsub=2Eshtml<=
br> Before posting, check wait time at:http://www=2Eccl=2Enet J=
ob:http://www=2Eccl=2Enet/jobs   Conferences:http://server=2Eccl=2Enet/=
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cl=2Enet/chemistry/searchccl/index=2Eshtmlhttp://www=2Eccl=2Enet/spammers=
To```
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strange characters on the top line to the :-: sign= =2E You can also look up the
X-Original-From: line in the mail header= =2E E-mail to subscribers:
CHEMISTRY:-:ccl=2Enet or use:E-mail
to a= dministrators: CHEMISTRY-REQUEST:-:ccl=2Enet or useBefore posting, check wa= it time at:
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E-mail to subscribers: CHEMISTRY : ccl=2Enet or use:=
h= ttp://www=2Eccl=2Enet/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_message

E-mail to adm= inistrators: CHEMISTRY-REQUEST : ccl=2Enet or use
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