CCL: Meritocracy, and all other things
- From: Igors Mihailovs <igorsm[]cfi.lu.lv>
- Subject: CCL: Meritocracy, and all other things
- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:04:16 +0200
Dear everyone,
As far as I understand, the original problem of this discussion (unbalanced
selection of invited speakers at a workshop) got its solution as good as this
community can provide - by sending the notification about the concerns to the
organizers. I sincerely doubt that further heated discussion would be helpful
considering the staunch positions of both sides. Let me remember Max Planck:
"An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually
winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes
Paul."
I believe this is applicable to the present discussion, too. Seldom arguments
are solved by persuading, especially on the Internet. Let us better remember
that Christmas is approaching and just wish/pray for everyone around us and us
ourselves to be kinder towards each other.
With best regards to everyone,
Igors Mihailovs
19 декабря 2019 г. 20:45:09
GMT+02:00, "Matthias Heger heger=-=ualberta.ca" <owner-chemistry :
ccl.net> пишет:
>
>Sent to CCL by: Matthias Heger [heger(a)ualberta.ca]
>Sebastian,
>
>First of all, thank you for that very detailed breakdown of what the
>meritocracy argument really is: A tool to justify the blatant victim
>shaming that we're seeing in this discussion.
>
>You're asking if you are forgetting anything in your list. I would
>actually expand on your fourth item - not fostering students from
>certain backgrounds enough - from the perspective of the current issue.
>How girls and women are judged in mathematics and science is not just
>about background, it absolutely is about gender too. This can be very
>clearly demonstrated. For example, randomized male or female names on
>otherwise identical resumes lead to drastic differences in how the
>applicants are rated in terms of competence and hireability for
>scientific positions. [1] One study found that already in primary
>school, girls can perform equally as well or even better than boys in
>math exams, but only if the tests are anonymized - otherwise, there is
>a distinct bias against them. This has obvious and lasting effects on
>their academic career choices right from the very start. [2]
>
>Gender bias among teachers and professors is an open secret. Putting
>the "meritocracy" nonsense on top of it is nothing less than
adding
>insult to injury. It actually reminds me of the whole "pulling yourself
>up by your bootstraps" thing.
>
>Best,
>Matthias
>
>
>[1] https://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474
>[2] https://www.nber.org/papers/w20909
>
>
>
>Am 19-Dec.-2019 um 12:51 a.m. schrieb Sebastian seb.kozuch*o*gmail.com:
>> Sent to CCL by: Sebastian [seb.kozuch_-_gmail.com]
>>
>> Dear CCLers:
>>
>> Since the topic of the women "quota" in comp chem has been
already
>discussed
>> here before (see the grand ICQC affair), I won't talk about it.
>Enough is to say
>> that I believe that Jim Kress is wrong.
>>
>>
>> However, I would like to talk about the concept of Meritocracy.
>>
>>
>> TL;DR version: Whoever believes in meritocracy is wrong. Horribly
>wrong. Savage
>> capitalism style of wrong. "Make America great again" kind of
wrong.
>>
>>
>> Long version:
>>
>> For those that are not familiar with it, there is a concept known in
>economy,
>> sociology and obviously in sociology of science called the Matthew
>effect:
>>
>> "For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have
>abundance; but
>> from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away."
(Matthew
>25:29)
>>
>> In simple words: "the rich get richer and the poor get
poorer"
>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect)
>>
>> We know this from the great inequality that has plagued the world in
>the 21st
>> century, but there are many studies that point to something that we
>all know
>> here: Whoever received scientific prizes in the past will have a huge
>advantage
>> to receive more grants, good students and honors in the future. There
>are
>> mathematical models
>> (https://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/S0219525918500145)
>already
>> pointing to the obvious:
>>
>>
>> Success = Talent + Luck
>>
>> Great Success = A little more of Talent + A lot of Luck
>>
>> (Daniel Kahneman, "Thinking, Fast and Slow")
>>
>>
>> Nobody says that the big names in comp chem are not bright. But there
>are tons
>> of other bright and extremely hard working people that never made it
>to the big
>> leagues due to a lack of luck. Maybe their PhD project was doomed to
>fail, but
>> nobody could know that until someone tries it (a kind of sacrifice to
>the gods
>> of science). Maybe their postdoc adviser was an a-hole. Maybe they
>were born in
>> the wrong side of the world. And yes, maybe you come from a culture
>where women
>> are not accepted as scientists since they will "neglect the family
>values". If
>> by a stroke of luck you had a good head-start, your chances of
>success in the
>> future grow exponentially.
>>
>> In other words: Meritocracy is a myth. A dangerous, unfair myth. Both
>in the
>> economic and in the academic world.
>>
>>
>> We are loosing many talents due to the lack of diversity and the
>belief that
>> people reached their status only due to their capacity. We are making
>things
>> worse each time:
>>
>> 1) We do not check that we give enough slots to women.
>>
>> 2) We review in a more harshly way a paper if we don't know the
>authors
>>
>> 3) We review in a more harshly way a paper if we don't know how to
>pronounce the
>> names of the authors (this is a real thing!)
>>
>> 4) We do not put more effort in teaching and forming students coming
>from less
>> happy backgrounds or less "academic" cultures
>>
>> 5) We give great honors to selected people just because they got
>honors in the past
>>
>> 6) We blindly take the H-index as THE measure
>>
>> 7) We applaud the people that published more papers than can humanly
>write (or
>> even read!)
>>
>> (what am I forgetting in this list?)
>>
>>
>> Of course that publishing more and getting prizes is great. Each time
>that my
>> H-index climbs one number I get drunk. But we must acknowledge the
>luck effect,
>> and especially the Matthew effect, in our and others successes.
>>
>> The fair thing is to see beyond that and give more opportunities to
>the less
>> lucky ones, with the hope they will have the same chances of showing
>their
>> capacity. Sadly we must include women in this bag, even in the 21st
>century.
>> It's not always easy, but we can start by trying to put more women
>and/or people
>> whose names we cannot pronounce in the conferences' list of invited
>speakers.
>>
>>
>> Meritocracy should be one-way: the one who merits, should receive. If
>you
>> believe that the ones that received did so exclusively because they
>merit, oh
>> boy. Not only you are unfair, you are unscientific.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for listening to my rant,
>>
>> Sebastian
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19/12/2019 0:18, Jim Kress jimkress35_+_gmail.com wrote:
>>> Sent to CCL by: "Jim Kress" [jimkress35[a]gmail.com]
>>> So, they need to ensure they have proper representation of all 26
>genders in their program.
>>>
>>>> From the responses I have seen, including the personal attacks
by
>Mr. Seifert, it is obvious the concept of meritocracy is dead.
>>> That is unfortunate. It reduces these Workshops to useless
displays
>of virtue signaling and mediocre science.
>>>
>>> I will not comment further. I'll have to invoke Mark Twain when he
>said " "Never argue with a pig. It just frustrates you and
irritates
>the pig."
>>>
>>> Jim Kress
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-chemistry+jimkress35==gmail.com{:}ccl.net
><owner-chemistry+jimkress35==gmail.com{:}ccl.net> On Behalf Of Shahar
>Keinan skeinan : gmail.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 12:43 PM
>>> To: Kress, Jim <jimkress35{:}gmail.com>
>>> Subject: CCL: 8th French-Japanese Workshop on Computational Methods
>in Chemistry
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent to CCL by: Shahar Keinan [skeinan###gmail.com] I agree with
>Kathrin here, it is the role of the organizers to make sure that they
>have a balanced conference.
>>>
>>> And it is the role of the community to call them out when they fail
>to do so.
>>>
>>> Shahar
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/18/19 9:30 AM, zborowsk zborowsk,chemia.uj.edu.pl wrote:
>>>> Sent to CCL by: zborowsk [zborowsk]|[chemia.uj.edu.pl] W dniu
>>>> 2019-12-18 11:07, Kathrin Helen Hopmann
kathrin.hopmann.:.uit.no
>>>> napisał(a):
>>>>> Sent to CCL by: Kathrin Helen Hopmann
[kathrin.hopmann..uit.no]
>Dear
>>>>> Organizers of the 8th French-Japanese Workshop on
Computational
>>>>> Methods in Chemistry,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sorry that I may have miscounted, it seems there is 1
female
>>>>> speaker among the 19 confirmed invited speakers (perhaps I
have
>>>>> misinterpreted some of the other name and there are more?).
>>>>>
>>>>> I know it is not easy for conference organizers to ensure a
>>>>> gender-balanced program. But we need to talk about this
problem
>>>>> sometimes, so that we can find out how we can improve
things.
>>>>>
>>>>> with best regards,
>>>>> Kathrin Hopmann
>>>> Do not only talk about, simply take a part in the conference,
then
>the
>>>> balance will be significantly improved.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Kathrin Helen Hopmann
>>>>> Sent: onsdag 18. desember 2019 11:27
>>>>> To: 'CCL Subscribers' <chemistry^ccl.net>
>>>>> Subject: RE: CCL: 8th French-Japanese Workshop on
Computational
>>>>> Methods in Chemistry
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Organizers of the 8th French-Japanese Workshop on
>Computational
>>>>> Methods in Chemistry,
>>>>>
>>>>> I counted 19 confirmed invited speakers on your website.
>>>>> Sadly, not a single of these seems to be a woman.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> with best regards
>>>>> Kathrin Hopmann
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: owner-chemistry+kathrin.hopmann==uit.no^ccl.net
>>>>>> <owner-chemistry+kathrin.hopmann==uit.no^ccl.net>
On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Francois Berenger mlists(a)ligand.eu
>>>>> Sent: onsdag 18. desember 2019 06:47
>>>>> To: Kathrin Helen Hopmann <kathrin.hopmann^uit.no>
>>>>> Subject: CCL: 8th French-Japanese Workshop on Computational
>Methods
>>>>> in Chemistry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent to CCL by: "Francois Berenger" [mlists-
-ligand.eu]
>>>>> Registration for the 8th French-Japanese Workshop on
Computational
>>>>> Methods in Chemistry (FJCMC2020) is open!
>>>>>
>>>>> Please consider joining us March 19th and 20th 2020 at
Kumamoto
>>>>> university (Japan).
>>>>>
>>>>> We will be lucky to have presentations by many prestigious
>speakers:
>>>>> http://www.chem.kumamoto-u.ac.jp/~frjp2020/invited-speakers.html
>>>>>
>>>>> More information can be found at:
>>>>> http://www.chem.kumamoto-u.ac.jp/~frjp2020/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>> The registration page is:
>>>>> http://www.chem.kumamoto-u.ac.jp/~frjp2020/registration.html
>>>>>
>>>>> We are looking forward to meet you in Kumamoto, The
>>>>>
>>>>>
>organizers.http://www.ccl.net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_messagehttp-:-//www.
>>>>>
>ccl.net/chemistry/sub_unsub.shtmlhttp://www.ccl.net/spammers.txt>>>;
>Conferences:
>>>>> http://server.ccl.net/chemistry/announcements/conferences/--
>>>> Krzysztof K. Zborowski
>>>> Faculty of Chemistry
>>>> Jagiellonian University in Krakow
>>>> 2 Gronostajowa Street
>>>> 30-387 Krakow
>>>> Poland
>>>> email: zborowsk-#-chemia.uj.edu.plConferences:
>>>> http://server.ccl.net/chemistry/announcements/conferences/>;
>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> -----------------
>>> Shahar Keinan
>>>
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